Andrew J. Mason:
On today's episode of The Pro Guide, learn about what it takes to have an effective leadership down in the trenches with town manager Sheldon Hudson. Today's episode of the Pro Guide is brought to you by Small Pod Productions, the producers of this podcast. If you're looking to boost your brand's voice with a professional end-to-end podcast production, whether it's an interview show or telling stories with audio, we walk you through every step of the process to make you sound great. Find out more at Small Pod Productions. Welcome everybody to this episode of the Pro Guide, my name's Andrew J. Mason. On today's episode, we have my friend Sheldon Hudson, town manager for over seven years, currently manager of the Town of Smyrna, Delaware, and previously managed a town where we personally saw incredible growth, great improvement during the time that Sheldon served there. Really excited about this, Sheldon, thank you for hanging out with us and talking about business, and leadership, and creativity, and how it all intersects.
Sheldon Hudson:
Absolutely. Thanks so much for the invite.
Andrew J. Mason:
Well, let's get started. Wind back that clock a little bit, and if you don't mind painting the backstory of how you worked your way into town management to begin with and maybe now that you're in the town of Smyrna, your initial vision for the town currently and what it can become.
Sheldon Hudson:
Well, I went to [inaudible 00:01:15]. I have a master's in government from Regent down in Virginia Beach. I have worked at the state county and the municipal level, and what I really like about the local level, the city level, is that you get to see the fruit of your labor. So you get the chance to be a little bit more hands on, really help the shape the destiny of your town. So again, not that any one person is solely responsible, but to feel like you're a part of something bigger in a meaningful way, and actually to get to see some of that come to fruition is pretty exciting. And even now, not being with the town of Millsboro anymore, there's still were some things in the pipeline from my time there that are just starting to fully come to fruition. And to see that even after the fact is pretty neat.
So it's a wild ride, but in any event, yeah, I worked at the state and the county level, but again, the city level certainly is, for me, the right fit because again, getting to see the fruit of your labor. And Millsboro, as you alluded to, we saw a lot of great economic development, economic growth during my time there and that's thanks to the efforts of multiple people. Obviously you have to have developers and investors who are willing to lay down the coin to make that happen and we saw some tremendous things happen. And for me, it's all about quality of life. When I go to Texas Roadhouse or Chick-fil-A or wherever now in Millsboro, and I see people join time with their families and their friends, it gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling that quality of life maybe has taken a step forward. And people have more things to do, more places to go, and no longer hopefully, having to drive to Salisbury quite as often, or Rehoboth and deal with that traffic, they can stay right in the Millsboro area. So it was a really fun ride while there for sure.
Andrew J. Mason:
Yeah and a little bit of level setting too. This podcast goes all over the country. So for those that don't know, the area that Sheldon managed previously was relatively rural and did not have a Chick-fil-A. We did not have a Chick-fil-A. So it's amazing. And this wasn't even necessarily in my list of questions, but I'd love to get your take on it. There's a certain amount of head nodding and alignment that needs to happen in order for this magic to occur, where you see positive growth happen in inside of a town, that is the challenge of leadership. Can you speak a little bit to moving everybody in the same direction, just some thoughts about how that looks, how that works?
Sheldon Hudson:
Well, you have to believe in the organization. You have to believe in the mission. In the case of town of Millsboro, as you alluded to, for the listeners who aren't familiar with the Delaware and Delmarva geography, we're about 30 minutes from Ocean City, Maryland, maybe two hours east or southeast of DC, two, two and a half hours south of Philly, so just 20 miles from the ocean. So it's a really, geographically, a great place to be. Low property taxes, which is drawing a lot of people from New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania to move down to the area. And so as a result, we had a tailwind for sure as a town. That being said, I wouldn't align myself with an organization, or in this case a city, that didn't have certain things going its way. At the same time, I like diamonds in the rough. I think in my profession you have two natures maybe, you have the reformer and you have the maintainer, and it's a totally different skillset.
I have colleagues of mine that are great maintainers, they can take a city that's largely mature, that's largely built out, it's done all of its annexing, it's done, all of its, I don't want to say all of it's growing, but the lion's share of it's growing. And you need someone at the helm that's going to successfully maintain that and reinvent in strategic, surgical ways to keep that position. But then for me, I'm more of a reformer. I like to come into those diamond in the rough situations. I think that was the case with Millsboro. I think that's the case with Smyrna, the town that I manage currently, and still has to be a diamond. In other words, it may be in the rough, but it still has to be a diamond. So in this case, you've got two towns that have a lot of potential. Millsboro frankly, still has a lot of unrealized potential and I hope it continues to grow and prosper in the years to come.
But I think that's the key. And you want to have a good rapport with your team. I think one of the things, and I'm jumping ahead a little bit here, but one of the things that I'm still learning is you can't do this alone. It sounds cliche, but you really do have to have a team that you invest in. You can't allow perfectionism to get in the way of strategic delegation. And of course, a lot of people hear delegation, they roll their eyes and they think of dumping. It's not a dumping, it's a true delegation where you're partnering, you're asking someone to take some ownership to help carry the vision forward, get the ball across the line. But that's something that I think I'm working on, and getting better at is delegating, is working with a team and not feeling like I have to carry all of the weight, or that it has to be done a certain way, letting people put their own spin on it. Because when people have buy-in and really feel like they're part of the solution, you have a much happier workforce, generally speaking, all else being equal.
Andrew J. Mason:
Yeah, and thank you for that full disclosure there too. Honestly, we talked about this last episode with Kristen that just the struggle of un-gripping that death grip for people, business, nonprofit, it doesn't matter what organizational arena you find yourself in, from thinking nobody can do it the way I can, quality's going to suffer if I delegate, but the business doesn't grow. And a couple of other thoughts about that, anything you have to offer in that space?
Sheldon Hudson:
Yeah, no, I think the key is ... and I'm listening to an audio book right now, it's been around for a long time, Good To Great by Jim Collins. But it's this idea of you've really got to have the right people in the organization. So I think once you have the right people, you're in a much better position to effectively delegate. So one of the things that I'm trying to focus on, now more than ever, is making sure that we pay attention to the recruiting process, the hiring process, onboarding all of those HR terms and concepts. Because most people can be trained to do a task, to complete a project, but you've got to have people that are self-motivated that care about the organization and then people don't require micromanaging. And again, some of this sounds so basic, MBA 101 and cliche, but it's really not. I've really, from life experience, seen that there's real value in that.
And one of the things I love about the town of Smyrna is that overall, you always have low performers, but overall we have a really solid staff, from what I can tell after seven months, that generally care about the town, they care about the organization. And so that makes my job a lot easier, having a great chief of police to work with, a great public works director and the list goes on. So that's one thing I would encourage maybe, newer or younger leaders to focus on, is just get the right people. It makes all the difference, and it's a big stress reducer for you. So there's pragmatic, selfish reasons for it as well.
Andrew J. Mason:
You mentioned being only seven months in this current slice of territory that you find yourself, in this town manager's journey. But I would love to know even so far, has there been anything that you've encountered that man that was a challenge for us. And even if it's a small challenge, you overcame it, we worked through it, we figured it out and we moved on, made things better.
Sheldon Hudson:
Well, one thing I noticed right out of the gate is that I had to build trust. And I'm only seven months, it's going to take more than seven months. It's going to take more than a year, even two years, but I believe there were ... I don't remember the exact count, and it is through no fault of any one group, or council, or management, but there was quite a bit of turnover in the town manager role over the last several years. And so I think that there are department heads and rank and file employees that are just thinking to themselves, "Geez, I hope this guy sticks around." And so I've been trying to do my part to let them know, "Hey, look, I have no intention of going anywhere unless there's a complete turnover on council." As an appointee, I can't control what happens on the elected side, but from my part, I want this to be a long-term commitment and really trying to show staff that I care.
I have a large team that I directly manage and then even larger team that I indirectly manage, so I can't always be as hands on or give the face time I might like sometimes. Smyrna is a slightly larger organization in that regard, but I think I just try to make the most of the interactions I do have and try to set a culture that shows people that the manager cares, and hopefully that filters through the organization from there. And I think that goes a long way. And having allies, within staff, I think is important as well when you're trying to advocate for the big stuff.
Andrew J. Mason:
Absolutely. And can you speak to how you balance this? We've got grand vision for the town of what things can be, where it's all headed, but also balance. Everything's on fire. Day-to-day, there's documents that need to be signed, people that need to be talked to, there's so many things that need to be done that just crowd out that importance stuff. Speak to that balancing, that tightrope walk act of figuring out how to balance it all.
Sheldon Hudson:
So I went to a city manager's conference a few years ago. In fact, I go to these annually typically, but probably the best known city management organizations is ICMA, which is short for the International City County Management Association. And I went to one of the sessions, I think it was a breakout session, and I remember pretty distinctly one of the quotes from one of the speakers, and it said, "Low cost of input equals low quality of participation." Low cost of input equals low quality participation, and the context, Andrew, was talking about social media. Because appointed officials like me, but especially elected officials tend to get really worked up when they see these keyboard commandos, I'll call them, I'm stealing that term from the public works director in the town of Millsboro, but he used to refer to these folks as keyboard commandos that will just fire from the back of the room, lob these arrows your direction and really have no interest in productive dialogue.
They just want to be critical, for whatever reason, they're jaded, they're frustrated, and they really aren't interested in engaging. And I think to circle back to your initial question, I think as a town manager, you have to figure out what here is high quality and what's low quality, who really truly wants to engage and be part of the discussion, and who just wants to be critical? And so the longer I'm in this profession ... and I have to be careful, I don't want to imply that I discount certain input, but the reality is some input carries a little bit more weight. If somebody comes to a council meeting or they give me a phone call and they're like, "Look, can I sit down with you for 15 minutes? I have these concerns. I want to talk to you." That carries so much more weight with me.
And in terms of the actions I take or if I need to get a colleague involved, or a department head, or counsel, as the case may be, it allows me to triage things more effectively. So going back to the everything's on fire, that allows me to figure out, okay, what's a true fire and what is a more of a mirage. And then you're able to, I think, better allocate your time and your resources as a town manager when you go through that exercise, which happens in a muscle memory sort of way over time. And you also, I think it's a very important role that you play as town manager, because I use the analogy, if you can visualize an hourglass, the manager is in the middle of that.
You're an appointee, so you've got the counsel above you or beside you, as the case may be, in terms of how you want to visualize that, and then staff below you, also kind of beside you. I don't want to seem to hierarchical, but the bottom line is you're the pinch point, right? You're the pinch point. So I see my role to keep staff calm, but also to keep counsel calm, the idea of what's truly an emergency. And so when you take the time on the front end to tend to issues of morale, tend to issues of emotional response, it can really save you time in the long run, an unnecessary effort. And then that helps you to make sure you're, not only tackling the high priority task, but also the low priority task that can build up over time and become a high priority.
Andrew J. Mason:
That's a fantastic answer. I'd love to have maybe, your take on the other side of that slice. There's the, I'm holding the world at bay, almost playing information attention broker to make sure that everybody's working together in a way that serves us all best. How do you handle the positive side of that? Let's say, the engine is firing on all cylinders, things are happening, we've got it right, there's really a healthy system that we're working within. What does it look like for your team when things are really moving in the right direction, the right way?
Sheldon Hudson:
Well, I'm sure you're familiar with the different schools of leadership. There's this idea of, you have the transformational leader, the charismatic leader, the servant leader, the authentic leader. I believe authenticity is huge. It especially rings true when you look at generational theory, generations X, Y, or millennial, and Zs all seem to have that in common, that they really place a premium on authenticity. I'm not saying boomers don't, but generational research seems to focus on the Gen X and younger is that authenticity piece being hugely important. So even on this podcast today, I've been trying to let you know some of the things that I'm learning and trying to be transparent. I think that's huge. And I hopefully, this mindset is dying out, but I think it's still out there, I don't know that it has the primacy it once did, but if you're transparent or you're authentic, you'll be perceived as weak, or that you don't have all the answers. And I think nothing could be further from the truth.
Most people are intuitive enough or discerning enough to know when you don't know all the answers. So why not just admit that? And so when I talk to a department head who may, technically in a hierarchical sense or in a traditional sense, be my "subordinate," I try not to ever treat someone that way. I need them, they need me, it's more we're collaborating. And so you don't have to come out and say, "I am the boss." People know that you're the town manager, you don't have to restate that. They want to know that you care. So I'll often say things like, "Okay ..." Jason, is the public works director in Smyrna. I used to say Kenny when I was in Millsboro, "Jason, Kenny, educate me on this." Right? Humble yourself, admit you don't know the answer. They're in a superior position in terms of their knowledge. Yes, I may in terms of the organization, I may be the "boss," but they are the "boss" when it comes to being the subject matter expert.
So being willing to humble yourself in a sincere way, not like a false humility, but admitting you don't know the answer. That can really go a long way, I think to building rapport. One of my guiding philosophies is everybody has equal value in the eyes of God. So just because someone's white collar, or blue collar, or hybrid of the two, I try to judge people, not by their position or their title, but by their work ethic. So if I see somebody that's really invested and really trying and really cares, even if they're still developing the skills, if they have a heart for what they do, I want to give that person a second chance. I want to give them a little bit longer to prove themselves if they're on the margin versus someone who maybe can do the task but has a rotten attitude. So I would choose the person with a better attitude.
Andrew J. Mason:
Sheldon, thank you for your time. This has been an excellent conversation. One combo question before we go first is what would you say you're the most proud of throughout your tenure so far as a town manager in the different towns? Is there something you look back on and you're like, "That is something I really am grateful for that happened." and then second is, what advice would you have for somebody who maybe, is aspiring to have a similar career path that you're having right now?
Sheldon Hudson:
I would definitely say the economic development, right, because that ties into the quality of life, which is all about leaving a legacy, making a difference. And some of that might be a function of my personality too. For the listeners that know about Myers Briggs, I'm an INFP. My wife would say I'm more of an ENFP, but I come out on the margin. But basically to me, the whole making a difference thing is hugely important. That's what I love most about this career that I've been blessed to have, is being able to be part of making a difference, leaving a legacy. Hopefully leaving the towns that I've managed/manage a little better than I found them. And so I would say, yeah, the retail recruitment, the new sit down restaurants, things of that nature definitely would be one of the things that I'm most proud of. If there's anyone in the audience who is looking at this as a profession, I think one thing I would say to them is, if you're a little more on the right brain side, like me, don't think that town management is all about administration.
Because early on in my career, coming out of grad school, I thought I was going to go more the policy wonk side, the public policy, and more the academic direction because it's more ideas, it's more theoretical. And then once I realized that you can be a city manager and actually be involved in policy, be involved in shaping direction. Especially if you take the time to invest developing rapport with your council, rapport with your staff, you can be part of those discussions, it's not purely a technocratic sort of exercise. And that was something that I learned about this profession that I did not know coming out of grad school, is that, wow, this can actually be a great profession for right brainers. You don't necessarily have to have a financial, or accounting, or more of a left brained orientation to be a good manager.
You don't have to have a dominant temperament because I'm not a naturally dominant personality. You can be more of an empathetic feeling, temperament and do quite well. In fact, I would say especially in the 21st century, that skillset, especially as a male, frankly, can actually come in really, really handy, being intuitive, being discerning, and some of the more intangible aspects of work life.
Andrew J. Mason:
This is so great. And how can folks keep in touch with you if you're interested in just seeing what you're up to with the town or connecting with you in any way? How can they do that?
Sheldon Hudson:
Absolutely. Yeah, and probably the best way to get ahold of me via LinkedIn. I try to keep that profile really up to date as much as I can. So linkedin.com/in/sphudson linkedin.com/in/sphudson. Would love to hear from any of your listeners. And I'm sure I could learn from them as much as they could learn from me, if not more so.
Andrew J. Mason:
Thank you, Sheldon, an example of a real true leader that is doing the work. Thank you so much for your time.
Sheldon Hudson:
Absolutely, sir. Take care.
Andrew J. Mason:
And our thanks to all of you for listening. If you're looking for a quick way to make our day, a review in iTunes, or subscribing to this podcast would mean the world to us. Our thanks to Small Pod Productions for sponsoring and this was The Pro Guide, learn from leaders, change your life. See you everybody.
